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Alan cohen
Reply with quote  #61 
I'll try it. What do I do?
Martin Mortensen
Reply with quote  #62 
Hello!

I think it would be nice to know the exact volume of air in the bucket after adding the contrete. Mostly according to the people that can´t get hold of the specific bucket but instead maybe a little different in shape, or slightly larger maybe. If you then know the exact air volume you can then compensate with the contrete and make the volume the same. Just an idea  

V = 1/3*π*h*(R²+r²+R*r)  I think  ...if not a cylinder

Regards
Martin
steve f
Reply with quote  #63 
Hi Martin,

I know the answer to this question. It really doesn't matter. If you follow the basic directions, the subwoofer will work just fine. If you are building two or four of them, just make them all the same. The beauty of Ed's design, besides being very cheap, is the flexibility of construction. Build it, and don't worry about it.

The only concern anyone should have is to avoid using an orange bucket. Don't want no fuzzy sound!

Steve
ed schilling
Reply with quote  #64 
Alan, you can take a cheap set of ICs and cut the end off a couple inches from RCA. Start with a 5k to be safe..... hook the resistor to the lead going to the center pin. Attach some speaker wire to resistor and the lead going to the shield. This end hooks to the power amp. RCA goes into the XLS. To run the xls in mono use a "Y" to combine the channels and switch it to mono and be sure to use the proper speaker connection as described in the manual. I am using a 600 ohm resistor but you should try a higher value first....the higher the value you can use and still have enough gain in the xls the better. 1/2 watt is fine.

WARNING!!!!!!!  Do not use this type connection with a digital amp or any amp that the speaker grounds can not take being hooked together!!!!!!!!!

I have never had a problem with this connection except for digital amps......

Hey Martin, you are correct but it just does not matter! Since it is a sealed design it's not really critical. Most "5 gallon" buckets will be "close enough". I'd make my pair using the same type however. That said, my two are slightly different since I went with the "decorator" model on one.

If this were a ported design I'd be a little more concerned about volume and matching them more closely.

The "prototype" was built using one from Lowes and it is the Grey one they sell with their name/logo on it. The next two were from Wally World. One White and one in Camo. They are all very slightly different.
No big deal. I think the taper is important and that they be completely sealed, no air leaks!

I do understand your concern and again, If I were going to build a pair I'd use the same  buckets but since I have a working pair and you have to measure them to find the difference, I'm good to go.

Hope this helps.
Ed

Alan Cohen
Reply with quote  #65 
Thanks Ed. I think I have everything I need here.

I'm going to hook it up in stereo, AEA, and see what I get. Drivers should be here today. I have everything else. Here's hopin' it rains tomorrow. 
ed schilling
Reply with quote  #66 
Ok, all the buckets I can find and the subs are all ~10" X~14" tall X ~12 inches, the lids (that I have) are all interchangeable. The anchor screws go just above the lid (or below it, depending on how you look at it). The concrete should cover them by a couple inches. My buckets have a projection on the outside and I filled them to about equal to it.

Hey Martin, I just remembered, the volume is right at 5 gallons :) minus the concrete :). I'm joking with you, you know :)
Ed
Jim Jakubowski
Reply with quote  #67 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Rozenblit
Major discovery!  Stop the presses.  Forget all the rules!

I just did some extensive testing with the bucket sub in my system.  I had moved some things around and connected the GG to the 300B with 12 foot cables.  Previously, I had always used 6 foot cables.  The sound quality did deteriorate just a bit.  Then I hooked up the Bash amp through a Y connector with 6 foot cables.  The GG is now driving 18 feet of cables, a 100K load and a 20K load.  It was too much.  The sound became harsh and peaky.  Terrible.  I unhooked the Bash amp and there was a huge improvement. Went back to 6 foot cables and the velvety smooth sound was back.  

What I learned is that the GG just can't drive cables much longer than 6 feet.  I will no longer offer sub woofer outputs.  The best way to use a powered sub is to connect it to the speaker outputs.  I know this contradicts what everyone says you are supposed to do, but do it.

Use the sub to augment the bottom end, to fill in what's missing.  By using the high level sub inputs, the sub amp can be located anywhere.

If cables have to be long, put the length in the speaker cables, not the interconnects. I stated that in Audio Reality but forgot my own teaching.  Keep interconnects as short as possible.     

  
ed schilling
Reply with quote  #68 
Hey Alan, by the looks of your mains they have a big challenge! You may need a "hoard" of them, 4 maybe? Given the cost/performance ratio don't think you're crazy if you go "crap, I want 2 more"!

Those Crown amps love4 ohms! I certainly do not need 4 but remember, everytime you increase efficiency and lower excursion you reduce distortion. Having 4 and that monster amp will allow them to just idle along, room nodes will be less a problem and distortion in the system will be lower.

With commercial subs they are just too damn expensive to have 4 and so most folks never get to hear the benefits of large cone area with low MMS via multiple subs vs. 1 large excursion, big, heavy cone.

Slow bass, fast bass....we've all heard the terms. Ask yourself how that is possible given the speed of sound is constant. Well, maybe it has to do with "transient response".......does a giant motor overcome high MMS? Well, the math says it can. 40 years experience says "not so much".

Low MMS is extremely important and always over looked....... think of what "audiophiles" consider some of the "best sounding speakers"........Quad, Magnepan, ribbon tweeters, all have very low MMS. When was the last time a manufacturer of tweeters bragged how high the MMS was!?

Why would one not think that same logic applies to subwoofers? And with that to ponder I've got to get back to the 300B calling my name!

Ed
ps.....I know the answer to the last question........ :)

sailor
Reply with quote  #69 
Wow Bruce, Thanks for the update on cables and the GG. I read Audio Reality and the part about interconnects but I didn't realize it was cumulative. I really didn't care if the sub was a little off but the main speakers is another story. I always wondered why when I had 10 foot cables connected to my sub it caused the sound to be off in my main speakers even when the sub was turned off. Now I know.  After all these years I still have things to learn. Thanks Bruce.
ed schilling
Reply with quote  #70 
Sailor, the GG is not alone. Almost all preamps will suffer this problem to some degree.  It has absolutely nothing to do with "gain" either. As you know the GG has plenty of that! :) Over the years I have seen some preamps cause the mains to "go soft" by simply plugging in a long set of IC's with nothing attached.

This is why I have always been amazed fellows split their pre amp signal to run their subs!

There are some pre amps that do not suffer this problem but they are rare. Very rare, I only know of one and there are valid reasons for why it works and most others don't. That said, even with that one, the high level conn. has always "sounded better".

There is a solution for them all , but I have been sworn to secrecy :)

This is a good thread. Folks might learn something! :) And end up with a killer sub or two!
So far we all seem to be in agreement.

Bruce, I don't think you should not offer the option of dual outputs since many have no problems using them . Maybe offer it with disclaimers? Also, suppose you make a "solution" to "fix it", then the extra outs would be very useful and problem fixed. Also a "solution" would be useful to everyone who already has them.

Uh oh, now I have an idea........

Ed
Alan Cohen
Reply with quote  #71 
Would doing the GG gain increase mod help this situation?
Gary Kemp
Reply with quote  #72 
Simple solution: I have my SWoofer very close to the GG; 1m (3 ft) of interconnect to the SW, and 1m from the SW to the power amps (t16s).  There's no reason so far as I can see to have the SW further away. 
Steve f
Reply with quote  #73 
Ed, I can see it now. "The Wonderful Remote Preamp Restorer" built in an old whisky bottle or ammo box of course.

Steve
ed schilling
Reply with quote  #74 
Hey Alan, read my last post again :)  "It has absolutely nothing to do with "gain" either".

Hey Gary, the "problem" is that seldom the best place for a sub is 3 feet from the electronics. Never been the case in my system.

I NEVER put the amp in the sub. That requires either long IC's or speaker wire and A/C power to it. This automatically limits placement. An outboard amp next to or on the rack  means just one wire to the sub and it can be very long This allows it to be placed in many more places. Also still allows for short IC's from pre amp if you do "Y" it.

Using outboard amp and  speaker connection to it will allow  the sub to use very long wires and not load the system down at all. Very long wires to the sub mean optimal placement. Why compromise at all? I don't, others may and be perfectly happy. My mom might be happy driving a Lambo in "limp mode" but that don't mean she's getting what she paid for. To me, sub placement is very critical as well as xover point,  limiting either is a compromise that need not happen. :)

Don't get me wrong, if you're good, then that is fine with me but unless you've tried moving the sub all around the room withought loading the pre amp down you may not have heard it at it's best, I'm just saying.... :)

Hope this helps!
Ed
Gary Kemp
Reply with quote  #75 
Ed - well you've motivated me to try the subwoofer running speaker level signals rather than line level.  I've always assumed line level is better. Unfortunately it;s not possible to split the subwoofer amp from the subwoofer in my case (it's a Rythmik Audio subwoofer).  I don't feel that there is any acoustic feedback from the subwoofer to the pre or power amps; but what are you referring to when speaking of the subwoofer placement? (at present: it's to right of one main speaker, right of which are the electronics). The bottom line (ha ha) is that I should get one or two of these ed schilling buckets. 
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